Lucifer was a title. It means "light-bringer" or something. His proper name was "Samael". The -el suffix is universal among archangels (Gabriel, Michael, Raguel, etc.)

Just to add...

The "el" refers to one of the names of God in Judeo-Christian mythology, the simple form of the name "Elohim" - from the hebrew root meaning "strength", or "power".

Most the angels had the El at the end of their own names to signify they were children/servants of God. A few, oddly, didn''t; Metatron comes to mind.

There is a theological argument that Satan and Lucifer are NOT the same being - that Satan is the former Seraphim who began the heavenly revolt and was cast down, and that Lucifer - Samael - was sent down to oversee Sheol, or Hell. People being people, laziness and lack of knowledge set in and the two names became synonomous. But that''s a different tale

Also: it''s a little simplistic to say Satan was cast down for wanting to rule - not quite true. He was egotistical, yes, but his pride came from the creation of Man and the way God gave his complete and total love to them, literally bequeathing all of Heaven to his new creations. Remember that Satan was of the Seraphim, the closest to God; these angelic beings spent eternity praising God''s divinity and singing his adoration. The pure intensity of their love for God manifested in a divine light that outshined any others, too strong for even the other angels to look at directly.

With that in mind...to have this perfect God who you praise constantly turn away from you and give his perfect love to a less divine, fragile, less worthy creature as Man - and you begin to at least understand why Satan (or Lucifer) rebelled.

Lucifer''s sin was pride, envy and jealousy; he didn''t want to rule, he wanted God''s perfect love.

Of course, all of this is conjecture and arguable. I just wanted to put it in a different...light.

The quoted phrase from Milton''s "Paradise Lost" was a bit of poetic license on his part that''s typically become part of mainstream venacular.

Blast, I knew this would happen... :-P

*Anyway*

My point was the trickster figure being important, despite being commonly refered to as a bad guy (as orionx so readily showed us there).
Nobody likes change, and there is a natural tendency to reject it and make it something of a taboo.
Whether this is a right or wrong attitude is debatable and a highly personal thing, so I wont go into that.

But still, I hope you can see the importance of the Trickster figure
At least, this little argument about Lucifer illustrates clearly how divergent the point of views can be (and that''s to be expected in a Judeo Christian society, after all).

Oh, and what did you find out about those solar heroes, SnS ?

Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !

quote: Original post by ahw

Oh, and what did you find out about those solar heroes, SnS ?

Not much. Solar heroes are, as I said before, associated with the sun, sun-holidays like solstices, equinoxes, and eclipses. The solar hero usually represents the power of divine right, royal blood, and destiny. He slays monsters, which represent chaos, and makes the world orderly and safe for man. He often dies sacrificially and is reborn. He often does not have access to all his holy abilities until they are awakened by his confrontation with his biggest enemy. He may marry and rule a kingdom for a while, but at the end of his story he is generally returned to his solar origins by being invited into heaven. Perhaps you will agree that this is often the role that the player is given in RPGs.

What I''m interested in right at the moment are animal folktales. Specifically I''m looking for tales involving animals courting and getting marries, especially if the two animals are different species. So if anyone knows of any of these, please tell me about it. The ones I know of so far are "The Wolf Who Loved Sheep", "Froggy Went A Courting", and "The Origin of the Leopard".

Errrr... please tell me you are not falling into the whole "furry" stuff ?

Anyway, in France we have all those cool "fables de La Fontaine", which I believe are based on the ancient Aesope''s fables. Given the amount there are I am pretty sure you could find something of interest.

Otherwise I am trying to remember this English show with the foxes and all their friends... mmmh, it''s a cartoon. Sorry :/

I am not sure if you are doing this on purpose, but the classical Trickster figure of animals is usually the Fox.
Or the Coyote in places where they dont have foxes.
Or do you have something else in mind ?



Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !

quote: Original post by ahw
Errrr... please tell me you are not falling into the whole "furry" stuff ?

lol, I've always thought anthropomorphics are interesting, and were-animals too, but I've never been a hardcore furry fan, and I don't expect ever to become one. The totem animals that I'm working on now will be true animals, not talking or anything. They'll be used as characters in the myths that go in between chapters od the actual story, by in the story itself they will only be used as heraldic or astrological symbols.

quote:
Anyway, in France we have all those cool "fables de La Fontaine", which I believe are based on the ancient Aesope's fables. Given the amount there are I am pretty sure you could find something of interest.

Otherwise I am trying to remember this English show with the foxes and all their friends... mmmh, it's a cartoon. Sorry :/

I am not sure if you are doing this on purpose, but the classical Trickster figure of animals is usually the Fox.
Or the Coyote in places where they dont have foxes.
Or do you have something else in mind ?

I've read all the Aesop's Fables, all the Rudyard Kipling Just So Stories, several Coyote and other native american animal stories, several Anansi stories, and assorted Chinese and Vietnamese animal stories. Next on my reading list is the Reynard the Fox cycle, and maybe some Loki myths if I can find them. But yes, I do have something other than the fox/coyote in mind for my trickster figure. Particularly I want an animal with hand-like paws, because tricksters are supposed to be inventive, meddlesome, and manipulative. And a small animal, so it has to use brain over brawn. Something like hare, who is the trickster figure in African mythology where Anansi isn't. And I want my trickster to be like a crow or a raccoon in that it has a fascination for shiny or brightly colored objects and tends to steal them or trade for them. It should probably be agile too - good at squirming it's way out of trouble.


I also want to have an animal that is like pegasus, the moth, and the nightengale, representing poetry and the flight of the imagination. This one will need to have wings and be a good singer of course. I was also thinking of making it be very absent-minded, like many artistic geniuses. Maybe a winged snake, or 'feathered serpent' as mythological reference books usually call it.

And then I also need one to symbolize masculine power and hunting, and I was thinking a tiger, but then I was unhappy with all the negative associations I found for tigers when I researched them. ( _Animals With Human Faces_ is an awesome encyclopedia of medieval english myth about animals, I just wish I could find the same thing for all cultures, especially egyptian, I'm having a very difficult time finding out anything about egyptian animal symbolism, and I _know_ they have lots. >.< )

And I need an animal to symbolize loyalty, which is usually the dog but sometimes also the horse (in arabian myth for example), and I like that one a bit better because I need some non-carnivores.

I expect to have about twelve animals when I'm done - twelve is a good mythic number, and would make people number thirteen, which would be amusing. So if anyone has any other suggestions for what other sorts of animals I need, feel free to suggest them. I know I need one that's vain, one that's fast and overly excited, one that's strong but not violent, like an elephant or ox, to opposed the tiger, and possibly one that represents leadership, like the lion maybe.

[edited by - sunandshadow on January 22, 2004 2:53:00 PM]

For some reason the baboon just comes to mind. Or whatever the name of those monkeys that run free throughout India''s cities is.
There was a very cool movie I remember where the monkeys resided on top of a rocky hill, in a sanctuary inhabited by a holy man that appeared to actually have the power to change into a monkey.
I cannot for the life of me remember the name of the movie (it''s one of those GREAT artsy movies we have on that channel called Arte, stuff you''d NEVER see on daytime TV).

I know it''s awfully vague, but maybe someone else has seen it ? Otherwise it would be a good starting point for you, the monkeys are very well known in India for pestering people, coming into houses to steal food, and generally showing limitless amounts of inventivity whenever food is involved.

There is also this story about the monkey trap.
Simply put in a jar fruits that are exactly the size of the jar opening, so that when they are grabbed, one cannot get one''s hand out of the jar...
It''s a trap that works because of the cupidity of the monkey, who will rather stay stuck and try to break free than release the fruit and live to fight another day.

Anyway I really wish I could recall the name of the movie...

Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !

[offtopic]

quote: Original post by Iron Chef Carnage
Lucifer was a title. It means "light-bringer" or something.

"Son of the Morning" is the typical translation.[/offtopic]

Awh,

It might have been one of the endless tales based on the character Sun Wukong, the Monkey King from the chinese epic "Journey to the West". The Stone Monkey is the classic trickster figure, and is a cultural icon throughout Asia. Essentially the figure is a monkey who learned magic, transformed himself into a god, earned himself a place in the celestial heavens, played tricks on the gods, fought them all to a near standstill, and eventually challenged the Buddha himself before being defeated. He earns his freedom by accepting a task, acting as bodyguard and servant to monk on a spirtual quest.

EricTrickster, good try but no, it was based in India, not in China.
My memories are a bit vague, but there is a European guy trying to protect those monkeys and making contact with the holy man in his hut on the montain, and there are the farmers trying to get rid of the monkeys coz they are destroying the fields of bananas.
But anyway, it's not really important, what's important is that the monkey is a good trickster figure

oluyesi : actually "light carrier" is the most correct, as in Latin "lux" is "light" and "fer" means "to carry" (well, I dont remember the infinitive form, but anyway). It's also the reason people think it's a title more than a name. A bit like people saying that Metatron is just a title for "the Voice of God". Or Satan a generic title for "the enemy"...

Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !

[edited by - ahw on January 23, 2004 11:24:26 AM]