I think there should be a lot more non-combat spells and magic items. If the only spells you have are some big fireball and lightening bolt, then it's basically just like having a regular weapon...it damages things. There should be a lot more non-combat spells...that's what would make magic unique.

Edited by - Nazrix on June 30, 2000 12:35:29 PM

"There is no magic, there is only stuff!"
- Nakor The Blue Rider

(From Raymond E. Feist''s wonderfull Fantasy books)

Regards

nicba

Holy busy thread, Batman!

First off, let me say I haven''t read through all the replies yet, so I may be repeating some things said before....

Magic should be a rare and powerful thing in any game world. However, so should heroes, so heroes with magic is usually a reason for them to be heroes in the first place : )

As for magic weapons being available for purchase, I''d say that nothing more than the most "common" items would be available. Some examples would be lightstones, or some minor runes. Magic weapons should always be rewarded or found, but more importantly, THEY SHOULD BE NAMED. Think about it. You''ve spent months creating a weapon/suit of armor that represents the height of your ability. It will, you believe, find it''s way into the hands of an adventurer that will find themselves written in the legends of thier time. You think that they will succeed partially based on the power of your wonderous creation. And you''re not going to give a name to your pride and joy?

Which sounds better:

The Hero stood his ground against the forces of evil, his trusty +4 Sword of Mighty Enchaments held at the ready.

or...

The Hero stood his ground against the forces of evil, with Stormbringer, the Sword of Thunder, raised into the sky. He sent a silent prayer of thanks to Blackbeard, the legendary blacksmith, for bestowing him with such a mighty weapon. The masses stopped their approach upon sight of the sword, whispering the tales of valor associated with the blade.

There''s never been a system that allowed you to easily make such items, so why are they nothing more than a shiny trinket? "Yay! I''ve got my +3 Axe! Can''t wait for a +4 one!" If you want to encourage your players to actually role-play their character, give them a world that allows them to...and this includes making magical items something of wonder.

OKAY! Wow...so many posts. I had something to say about every one I read, I skipped over the last ones, but its been so long since I started reading I''m forgetting what I was going to say. I''ll try to take this question by question. Hope its not too long for everyone.

First, it is NOT Fantasy if there is no magic. Take magic out and it is just medieval/dark ages.

Second, the reason to have the magic is so players can experience things in a realistic environment that just can''t be done in the real world.

Third, I agree totally that magic items should NOT be in shops. I have played many games and read many books as well as written my own books, and worked on my own game stories. Their should be different sources of magic. Such as holy knights laying their sword on an altar, praying at the altar and offering a large donation of money. After a certain time praying, something happens. The knight''s sword is bestowed a holy blessing and does 5% more damage to dragons and demons etc. We definately don''t want some rickety thing off a shelf that there is 20 more copies of in the back room. However, if you had like one magical item out of all the stores in the game, that could add interest. I once wrote a book where the main character was learning to sense magic from the items around him. A bazaar type thing was going on in town, and there were tons of stands selling fake trinkets proclaiming them to be magic, however, the character finds that one of the ugliest, plainest medalions he has ever seen is bursting with magical power, sitting in a stand with countless other fake trinkets. Plot twists like this can really get the story going, especially if the item gets into the hands of some insignifigant person who is soon to become a hero. Also, maybe we have an evil demon out looking for this trinket? who knows...

Fourth, as far as collecting magical items or powers is concerned, here is some things to think about. You have to make magic particular to its caster, so they know that not every other schmuck around has the same powers. Magic must be unique, and develop over time. Two examples: One, in writing out my thoughts on a multiplayer rpg environment one time, I came to the idea that certain races were naturally proficient with certain magical schools, and also barred from learning others. This means the woodland elves start out at a much higher level of "Nature" magic than anyone else, and also can cast more powerfully with it, but they are barred from using death magic, where on the other hand the Leer Elves are naturals with death magic, etc. Second example (pulling this from a single player rpg that I''m writing for, maybe you''ll be playing it in about two years) Lets say you have a character thats got a bloodline that traces back into magical traces from the past. Lets say this magic is still alive today, but no one knows about it, not even the character. Through his journeys and experiences, he awakens this magic, and travels all over the world to complete his training, without even knowing that he was training till the end. He is the ONLY one left with the power, and the fate of the world rests on his shoulders. (This type of example would only work for single player though.) In conclusion, if you set the magic up to be unique to a particular type of people, or training, you''ll find a lot less duplicates running around, and a lot more mystery around the magic.

Fifth. This concerns systems of magic. Always make sure to have using the magic have some penalty. In lord of the rings, the ring of invisibility soon proved to have some very dangerous traits. In a lot of games, you may need reagents(required ingredients) to cast a spell. The more powerful the spell, the more expensive the ingredient. I once read where the caster needed the blood of an innocent child to cast his spells, and even killed his own son to use his blood. Another where cutting off limbs of the caster such as fingers, toes, arms, and legs was the key to unlocking magical power. I also suggest reading a lot of fantasy books, as well as checking out for a week or so a lot of the on-line games already established. They usually get the brain juices going, especially the books.

I would espescially recommend reading the Book of Swords series(<---ESPESCIALLY this one) by Fred Saberhagen, or any of Terry Brook''s Shannara series. Well enjoy. And again, sorry for the length, but I found this to be a lengthy topic, and proving points usually means giving examples.


Raz


"Imagination is the key to Creation"

If I have a dragon, and/or goblins in my setting, but no spell caster to speak of, then is it still fantasy? Or what if I simply weren''t allowing magic to be used by player-character, since it would be too powerful and difficult?

I run tabletop games in this fashion all the time. If a character REALLY wants to play a sorcerer, that player will go to the ends of the earth to do so. It usually comprises much of the campaign, just learning magic. But it''s so powerful, you might think it''s worth it!

But to my former question. If we were to erase the "Mage Player Character Class" from gamer''s dictionaries, what would happen? Magic is no longer so commonplace that you, a player, can use it. Well, now we don''t have to worry about game balance with magic, do we?

I think that a world where magic is rare and as a result powerful would be great. I really like the concept of magic in games. A system where few people possess it, would make it so much more special. It takes all of the mystery of magic when just anyone who picks a mage class can do the same things.

"The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom." --William Blake

Well Now,

I suppose a world with no magic would
certainly be very realistic. It would
still be fantsaty just less of the magic.
And if I think about it in games such as
B''s Gate and Final Fantasy it''s not so far
fetched. Hell it might even encourage
gamers who want a really challenging RPG
to buy it. You have a point Landfish.

STVOY


Mega Moh Mine!!

I am AMAZED that no one had brought up this point:

OF COURSE you could have magic items sold in shops. The obvious reason for this is that people would be UNKNOWINGLY selling and buying magic items. It''s the same phenomenon as finding a rare item at a garage sale by pure luck.

Now, shops stocked to the brim with items that they _know_ are magic, that''s silly. Even worse is being able to know to the exact damage point what the effects are, or having a generic way to get information about an object that is the same for each one (pay the shopkeeper 100 coins and he''ll tell you about your item, etc.)

Mostly what I like about magic is mystery. In my ideal world/game, you''d rarely know if an item was magic when you bought or found it, and even if you did, you probably wouldn''t know what its effects were or how to get them to work. Your character''s attributes, the setting, and so on would affect how and if the magic worked. When you misused an item you might get disasterous or hilarious effects. And almost all magic would have some sort of counter consequences, rather than just being "free" power.

What''s the drawback to this? The same as it is with having great background history for each item -- time. It takes a long time to work all of this out for each item, and the processing to figure out if an item works in each situation would be prodigious.

But man, it would be cool.

quote: Original post by Landfish
But to my former question. If we were to erase the "Mage Player Character Class" from gamer''s dictionaries, what would happen? Magic is no longer so commonplace that you, a player, can use it. Well, now we don''t have to worry about game balance with magic, do we?

It sounds like your just getting lazy or are you trying to simplify things in order of accomplishment?

This is very dangerous if you''ve already set (game design) goals as you''re probably aware. But i don''t see anything wrong with it as a starting point for writing a story in fantasy.You as the writer should know this Landfish?!


I love Game Design and it loves me back.

Magic is over-hyped in Ultima: Online, that''s for sure...

WHile I don''t see many magical items, most of the players are mages of some kind. Why? Because they are sooo much harder than everyone else.

Main main UO character, until recently, couldn''t even cast a simple spell (Magery of 0.0). But, that game is too focused on magic. My char is a kick-ass swordsman, but that doesn''t matter, ''cos there is always a mage nearby that casts poison on whatever I''m attacking, claiming my kill (Poison works over time, and usually causes the last hit). It''s got to the stage where I cure poisoned monsters, just to spite the annoying mages...

Mark Collins (aka Nurgle)
me@thisisnurgle.org.uk