(I hate the lenght of topic... didnt' fit compeletly, so I'm restating it: "Why don't you commercial programmers do small games?") Don't you ever-never-ever miss the old days, when the shareware became "the-big-thing"? Such a companies like Apogee and Epic used to have really cool "small" games that still aren't that bad after all... So actually what I'm asking is that why don't you making own little games, but work only with big projects? This might sound stupid, but after years of experience I would think that you could write a simple small two player Starcontrol-stylish spaceshooter in one day... I have lots of ideas that would probably make money in shareware business, for an example I would give 2D-elite with randomized universe and randomized missions. The game would be similar to the old Elite, but it would be just 2D, and yes, MUCH LESS buggy This for an example... why don't you create this kind of small games that you are (probably) dreaming? Is it because you REALLY don't have any time, or because you know that you are not making big-bucks with it (meaning: you don't do gameprogramming any more for love, but for money), or is what? Not taking offensive... I'm just... confused. -Paladin Edited by - paladin on 5/8/00 6:45:52 PM

Shareware = ~Shareware

What is a small game in your opion ?

I think a game that is so simple that you could do it in one day, would not be much fun to play...

I have always wanted to make a game like "Raptor" or "Swiv", but nobody wants to play such old-style 2d games anymore I think.

And I don´t believe in shareware...Games can´t be much bigger than 10 mb, which really sucks...

No one wants to play games like SVIW and Raptor ???

I think you are wrong, is is just me who wants to play quality shareware games???
Lets take an example: Wings. Simple cave-fighter shareware game, but I used to play it many times a week with my friends, and I registered it... Nowdays I don''t play it anymore, because it doesn''t have setting to change VGA mode to SVGA... darn. But still it is a great game.

Have you ever heard about game called Tyrian?
I used to play this Raptor-clone pretty much, because it has so much secrets and other cool stuff to discover!
I just found Tyrian 2000 (W9x version of old Tyrian) from EBWORLD, and I bought it... and o gosh, the full version of that game is so huge
I mean, there are lots of levels, many bosses, Xenon-stylish shop to buy new weapons, and lots of cool action!

Now, I think that commercial developers are thinking that Asteroids and Xenon clones don''t sell well, and there is simple reason: Prize. I believe that House Marque did terrible mistake for trying to sell "standard" arcade shooter game for 40$ ! And it didn''t have even that much depth like Tyrian!

In my opinion shareware has one way to "fight" against commercial games, and that is the depth in game. Shareware game needs lots of options, levels, and level editor, and this can make game really enjoyable. I have also registered game called "XiXit", which beats every commercial columns/tetris clone by simply having GREAT (I really mean *great*) soundtracks (mod), beautiful graphics, lots of small and fun options, and great gameplay.

Don''t you ever have great & stupid & fun game idea, in style "Hey! It might be kind of fun to make a little game, where player is evil sorcerer and he has to fly allover the world and make people pigs"? (really stupid idea
Or maybe little more serious: "Wouldn''t it be cool to make a old-school shooter with little roleplaying elements and multiple endings? It would be based on cyberpunk world, and player could walk back and forth in this platform stylish game... It would be kind of like Anotherworld in Amiga"?
Don''t you have anymore ideas that you wan''t to programm because you know how to do it, and have you become tools of designers who cannot use imagination without anyones help?

And who cares about the money? If you want to become a millionare, you don''t work with shareware games (except when you have a great idea, like Doom had)! But does this mean that commercial developers at big companies just come to work and say "ah... BS-job, but somebody has to do it..."... Meaning, don''t you love gameprogramming anymore?

Again, I''m not trying to take offensive side... but I''m trying to make my question clear
See, I have lots of ideas, but I cannot make those because I''m not good enough programmer... yet(?)

-Paladin

quote: Original post by Paladin

(I hate the lenght of topic... didnt'' fit compeletly, so I''m restating it: "Why don''t you commercial programmers do small games?")

Eh? Define "Commercial Programmers" please.

Lupine Games (www.lupinegames.com) is as commercial as anyone else, and they tend to produce titles that the likes of Eidos would consider tiny.

I work at Criterion Software, whose many arms produce RenderWare3, as well as big games (for consoles mainly, such as TrickStyle, Sub Culture, etc.), AND small-scale games: Check out www.fiendishentertainment.com if you don''t believe me. (Or look at www.real.com and check out their games section.)

Also, take a look at www.freeloader.com from Pure Entertainment. It''s not just back-catalogue stuff.

And why wouldn''t you consider something like "Deer Hunter" as ''commercial''? It made money, didn''t it?

--
Sean Timarco Baggaley


--
Sean Timarco Baggaley

Commercial developer (in this case) is person who has been programming games at big companies for a while... three years or more.

This is kind of a question for person who has been programming MDK, or maybe some Lucasarts games, or whatever... If there are any who visit at gamedev at all

Well, what ya think mr. Sid Meier ? :D

I''m guessing the answer is the same reason why there aren''t a million and one car designs rolling out of Detroit.

Cars and computer games are similar in that in their infancy, both were made by individual inventors and creators.

Later, as both became consumer goods, the primary source became massive factories, not tiny workshops. The corporations who own and operate these massive factories don''t want to risk their capital, market share and reputations on quirky design experiments, they want proven formulas, incrementally improved and tuned to fit their projections of market demand.

Hence we have Final Fantasy VIII, Tomb Raider IV, and a yearly installment of Mustangs, Corvettes and so on.

Which is not to say that it is impossible or unheard of for individual inventors to make their own cars or computer games. It just isn''t significant to the industry at large.

And the problem isn''t that these individually designed cars or computer games aren''t any good. The problem is that there is no efficient way for these things to find their market. You don''t have showrooms on auto row displaying these designs. You don''t find these games in the Best Buys or Software Etc. stores. And, given the current financial status quo, you won''t anytime soon.

Oh well, back to the task of making cookie cutter games,

$0.02

Hmm... still this didn''t answer (I think?) to the question, why these expert-gameprogrammers, individual persons, don''t create own little games if they have skills?

I disagree with that small companies/individual persons cannot do good games. For an example, Klass Of 99, Star Havoc, Wings, and many other games are actually pretty good and offer many hours of fun playing. Tyrian made me to play it for about 20h, Scorch probably more than a three years (well.. now it''s old , XiXit I play still, Teenagent & Igor: Objective To Uikokahonia I played (still never finished) having as much fun as with oldscool Lucasarts games.

I''m not talking about groups! I''m really talking about expert-gameprogrammers, who A) don''t have imagination or B) have some reason for not to do own "fun & small shareware-projects".

I make myself an example (even though this is pretty fiction): After ten years, I''m the most EliT3st programmer in the world. Now, I have had so many cool ideas when I was mr.lamer, and now I''m going to program these fun ideas... or am I? Why wouldn''t I? Is it just because I''m not getting any money for having fun, and I preferr to do only serious projects, because I can get some nice money from those, even though if I don''t enjoy doing some "Quake 10"-engine?

Don''t expert-gameprogrammers want to have fun with own ideas when they are able to do those, and do they preferr to work only in big projects?

I don''t understand this... or maybe I''m just too simple person

-Paladin

Most people need some kind of recycle time after they leave work, and if you program games for a living, you will generally spend your recycle time doing something else.

Mark Fassett
Laughing Dragon Entertainment
http://www.laughing-dragon.com

Edited by - LaughingD on May 9, 2000 5:47:50 PM

I guess the part I left out was the money.

Expert programmers get paid a lot, so corporations don''t want to waste expert programmers on a board game or adaptation of who wants to be a millionaire. Just about anybody can program those.

Expert programmers are the ones that get slotted to work on the crown jewels, the cash cows, the franchise centerpieces.

These are the projects with the most prestige, the most priority and the biggest completion bonuses.

If you want to find an expert programmer working on a little game because it''s fun, you''re looking for a startup. I say you because I''ve had it with startups. Burned twice, for what it''s worth. I''m riding an industry thoroughbred now and I intend to ride for a while.

$0.02